Community over Competition

Matt: Welcome everybody to Write Out Loud, the podcast about writing, storytelling, and, uh, being your creative self. Putting all your endeavors out into the world. As we've said many, many times, that's where they belong. So tonight, I'm here, but joined by the mystical, magical, mythical, mesmerizing Christina.

Christina: a new one.

Matt: It is. Yeah.

Christina: I guess you'd call that grammar things, yeah.

Matt: Writing, writing tools. Yeah. Yes, I knew you liked it. That's kind of why I did it. A little bit anyway. So, you and I were talking as we often do and one of the things that you had mentioned was that the business of books and the business of writing and the business of being an author involves relationships.

Christina: Yes,

Matt: Right? Which is not a surprise. Yes. Mm hmm should not be a surprise to anybody You got to deal with people even though you're a writer like you might be by yourself in a you know Hold up in a in a room somewhere typing away, but at some point other people get involved

Christina: in fact on threads today.

Matt: Mm hmm Mm

Christina: wanted to call it something else that doesn't exist anymore The writer said something like I got into writing because I'm solitary, I'm an introvert, I'm all these, single things.

Matt: hmm

Christina: he said, who knew that I was going to be talking to everyone under the sun? 

Matt: Sure

Christina: I'm paraphrasing, of course. yeah I think it is little bit of a And not a mistake, a misnomer, a miss, misconception,

Matt: Misconception there you go

Christina: that writing is a solitary endeavor.

Matt: Sure Yeah,

Christina: is

Matt: I agree. I think I mean think about You writing itself, maybe to a degree, right? There's times when you'll be by yourself, but then you might involve someone like an editor and now you've got to deal with another person, right? Or you go out on book tour or you go out on some sort of speaking engagement and you just, now you've got people all over the place, not to mention fans who write to you and talk to you and want to interact with you and publishers and all of this stuff, right?

So there's. Lots and lots of people involved in this. And I think in that too, what really kind of clicked in my brain was I think sometimes there is this tendency for authors who are maybe just starting out. We don't have a ton of success just yet to try to compete against other starting authors.

Right? Because they feel like, Oh God, no, I can't let them be any good because that will take away from my book and no one will want to read my book because theirs, theirs is so good. And I feel like that's not true. I feel like there's plenty of success to go around.

Christina: Yeah. I think on the, the, the same, know, token,

Matt: Mm hmm. Hmm.

Christina: that if that reader buys them, not going to spend their money on me. As if readers, which they do in a lot of ways, they have limited funds, but they're definitely buying more than one book,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: And there's also, there are millions of readers in the world. And so I have always taken on the stance with my clients. That all you have to do are find, find your readers

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: how do you find your readers? Guess what? You find like authors, you find your tribe other authors that, know, I'll put you in my newsletter if you put me in yours,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: if you promote my book coming out on this date, I'll promote you coming out, on such and such date. So.

Matt: and again, I think part of it and the reason that I feel this way, right, that the competition feeling is kind of natural, but at the same time there's plenty of success to go around is I think there was a thread or a post at some point that I read as well that was like, I am here as a new author lifting up other authors because I feel like if I lift up others, we can all have a great time together.

And so this person was just spending time. Retweeting or reposting or whatever that they, whatever authors that they encountered where they liked their work and they wanted to share it with other people. Right. And it was in some ways in direct competition with theirs, because again, it's attention, right?

You're competing for attention to some degree. Sure. But that attention span can be spread out and it doesn't have to be, you read my book right now. Maybe you did start with their book. But that book's gonna come to an end at some point. And then hopefully you'll think about mine.

Christina: And the thing is, is that you don't want to think about in terms of if someone else is buying, if a reader is buying someone else's books, they aren't buying mine. actually buys you time

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: between your releases to take the time to write and get things, where they need to be. Most writers don't write more than two or three books in a year. Yes, there are some that are going to write more than that. Yes, there are some that are going to write less. You

Matt: Those are called outliers.

Christina: most my clients fall in the, two to three books a year or just one book a year.

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: I don't, I don't think I have any clients that have ever written more four books in a year that's not to say they're not, that they're not out there, but the thing of it is, if there are other authors that you can cooperate with,

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: call it, not competing, but cooperating,

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: if you can find, like I said, find books that are in your category. Not just your genre, but like your sub genre,

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: that have similar styles that again, you can do newsletter swaps. You can do promotion swaps, on Facebook, Instagram, know, whatever you can do, back in the day, uh, when the internet was just starting, so eBooks were not here yet,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: authors used to have.

And then they would have their individual events, uh, like reader weekends.

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: That author would put that on, they'd also invite authors that were in the Their category. So, I used to work with Suzanne Brockman. She writes military romances, Navy Seals to be exact. But there were two or three other authors that wrote similarly. Catherine Mann. She wrote military romances for Harlequin. There was Virginia Cantra at the time she was writing brothers, so kind of like the brotherhood military aspect. I think she had a few military as well. We'd go to these weekends and Suze the time she needed to do. Some downtime and stuff. So she wasn't having to be the host

Matt: Sure.

Christina: There were these other authors and these other authors really wanted to participate that grew their readership.

Matt: Mhm.

Christina: there are a lot of ways that you can cooperate with others and not consider them competition.

I mean, if you're constantly going around considering everybody competition, I mean, that's,

Matt: Exhausting.

Christina: exactly.

Matt: It's exhausting. But , I think what you said is true. Hits home in this way. Imagine the marketing power that this brings, because we've said it before. You write the books, you write the stories that you want to read. You write the stuff that's out there. So if, if I have now connected with this author, because this author writes amazing stories that I also want to read.

And they start recommending or uplifting other authors that are similar to them, or even slightly different, but maybe they have similar characteristics. Like, I'm more likely to go also sample those people. Because, again, we've also talked about how hard it is to find good stories.

Christina: you

Matt: Right?

Christina: reminds me of back to my book selling days. Suze came to the store. That's actually how I, I first met her.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: She had posted in her newsletter that she was driving from her then hometown of Boston, Massachusetts to the Romance Writers Convention in Denver

Matt: Okay.

Christina: Wisconsin is certainly on the way there, maybe a little side trip.

But so I had A huge romance following in the bookstore. We had a book club.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: were one of the top romance sellers. In my region.

Matt: Nice.

Christina: anyway, point being she came to the store, but it was during an off release. So what that means is she didn't have a new release, so her husband called me to talk about marketing and stuff. And he was saying to me, I want to temper expectations. A lot of people are going to bring the books in because they would have already bought them. And I was like. worry, I'm actually going to have a display of Suze Recommends. And they're all authors and things that Suze had recommended. That I had just kept track of because I knew we weren't going to sell a lot of books, but I wanted her at the store. So I wanted the company

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Oh, Hey, the sales were pretty good here. Maybe we'll send some more authors their direction. So yeah, so I actually put up a whole display of Suze recommends and there was everything in there from some nonfiction, Navy SEAL books that she must've used for like for, research and stuff, 

Matt: Sure.

Christina: She loves to read historical romances while

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: She doesn't like to read something that she's writing, so she's not confusing, someone else's work with her own, which, I appreciate, a reader, uh, but yeah, so there was like this list and I said, if Suze wants to send me a list of books she would like on there, I'll, I'll do it.

So

Matt: Heck yeah. Mm hmm. Mm

Christina: there's a lot of ways that readers find new to them authors. And one of those is actually what other authors are recommending.

Matt: hmm.

Christina: You don't want to be buggy, but yeah, reach out to an author that you think writes like you and say, Hey, I'd be happy to send you a book if you want to, put me in your newsletter or we could do a newsletter swap or, something else

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: can do that's, these are all marketing things that don't really cost anything

Matt: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Christina: I think it's worth your time to connect with somebody that, really connects with your work too. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: somebody who's maybe a little bit more successful than you are and just kind of talking to them about the work that they do and kind of building again goes back to the relationship side of things, right? Building the relationship so that you can broach that topics because I mean, you don't want to cold call them and be like, Hey, would you promote me?

Yeah. I'll promote you. And they're like, yeah, no, I don't even know you. No,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: right. But if you take the time to get to know them and they see you around and they see you talking and engaging and, they, they might even sample some of your, your work at that point too, or maybe they already have, but again, the whole idea is, it's, this is not a solitary sport that this is all about, relationships

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: it shouldn't be about competition.

Christina: No. And in fact speaking of relationships, you're sparking a lot of, my different hats days that I, did things, when I was a bookseller know, really that networking. Is paying off for us now because I have all of those contacts still in my Rolodex and it's been nice to be able to reach out to some of those people, and we've had some of them on the podcast already,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: but also being able to network with them in making more. Connection. So really it is, it's one of those things that a, you definitely don't want to burn any bridges. don't, because you don't know you're going to come face to face with in this industry. Again, back in the day when I started without eBooks you just had at that time, it was like the big seven.

I think it's down to like the big five now. Often see editors. Going from house to house to house. they didn't stay at at one house all the time. They took opportunities to take a promotion at another publisher, or there was, something else that they wanted to do. And so, you make a lateral move,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: author that you want to work with, and there's a job opening, and you get to be their editor or whatever. It's, it's very much industry that. you don't want just burn bridges, but you don't want your reputation to precede you. Let's put it that way. Or badly, you

Matt: Yep.

Christina: reputation to precede you. Right. Yeah.

Matt: I did a quick little search and I was like, tell me, what are some other marketing things like authors could do, right. To get their name out there. And, uh, I just wanted to see how much of it was around. Collaborating or, integrating with other people. I wanted to see how many of those suggestions were.

And there's only a couple. Well, I mean, there's really one, two, three, four, five, if you count social media, but that involve other people, right? So obviously marketing, I mean, you're not, isn't really solitary anyway. Like marketing is going to be out there and trying to spread the word, but collaborate with other authors is on the list.

Partner with others in your genre for joint promotions, giveaways, or cross promotions to reach a wider audience. So just what we've been talking about, right up here on podcasts. It's a novel idea.

Christina: Oh yes.

Matt: It's like, huh?

Christina: podcasts out there that you can collaborate with.

Matt: Exactly. Exactly. Uh, hosting book launch events. Kind of have known about that, right? And book tours and things of that nature. But I think too, like. You could spin that a little bit and like do not only like a book reading or a book book event, but you know, giveaways, right. We'll give away 10 signed copies of the book or something like that too.

But combine that with collaborating with other authors. Maybe you travel together and you do this, do the events together and kind of talk about it. I don't know.

Christina: Well, another thing too I think this was on threads maybe a couple of days ago I had, uh, a short conversation with Maisie Yates, uh, she's an author that started at Harlequin

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: she was invited to participate in a charity anthology.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: later when she was, uh, looking for a book deal through her agent, she That editor, I think had done that charity anthology or

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: something with the editor and that charity anthology that there was that connection there. So that relationship her through this transition, to a new book deal. So, I mean, there, there are so many things that you just don't know that, stepping in to. Could be good just to get your name out there.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Christina: the anthology on your own. Think, Oh, okay. I really want to work with a couple of these authors. Maybe I'll invite them to write an anthology with me.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah, that'd be fantastic. Yeah, I love that. The other one here too is like doing a charity event. And so what they are talking about there is like, like a readathon, something, something of that nature and getting people kind of, reading as many books as possible to raise money for charity, which is kind of an interesting idea.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: And then of course, cause my cynical brain goes to how are you going to prove that they actually read those words? Hmm. I guess you just take it on.

Christina: so you're going to want to give them the money.

Matt: That's true. That is true. Oh, too funny. But yeah, I mean, there's just lots of ways. So I think it's interesting this whole concept of, not competing, but cooperating.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: And finding different ways to make that happen. Posting their content on your social media

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: and vice versa.

Christina: Well, I think the thing is I do want to acknowledge that that competition feeling I think just comes from business in general are used to competing

Matt: Sure.

Christina: one another. So I think authors kind of translate that. it also comes from a little bit of a scarcity. Mindset of

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: there are limited readers with limited dollars out there. And if someone else is reading this other person's work, they're not reading mine,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: absolutely percent unequivocally

Matt: Yep. Ha ha ha.

Christina: isn't a lot of readers out there that just read one or two books. I wouldn't even call them readers. I'd call them people that are keeping up with, popular things that are happening.

I don't know, the most popular books like, It Ends With Us is one of those books that is more widely read and there are going to be some non readers. that

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: up just because it was so hugely popular. So that's not the audience I'm talking about. The audience I'm talking about is, are the readers that read It Ends With Us when it first came out, 

Matt: ha ha ha. Yep.

Christina: yeah, no, I think that

Matt: Mm

Christina: that's really, um, someone that maybe needs to take a little bit longer look in the mirror and figure out why they

Matt: hmm.

Christina: that way, 

Matt: yeah, yeah, because I will say it's a valid feeling like it's, it is normal to kind of feel that way, right? Like you, in anything that you do, you think, gosh, well, if they're paying attention to that person, they're not paying attention to me,

Christina: right,

Matt: but you're looking at it too much as a binary thing,

Christina: yeah,

Matt: right?

And instead of a continuum where it's like, they are paying attention to them now, but eventually that's going to fade and they'll, they'll start paying attention to you. If you continue to do what you're doing, if you continue to make, enough, And if you continue to try to bring them to your, to your side as well.

But I think people are, are naturally drawn to people who do things that are maybe perceived as selfless. Like don't be selfless just because you want people to perceive you as selfless, but do it because you want to help other people. But when you lift up other authors, when you do things to help them get success, That just naturally will, will fold back upon you as well.

Mm

Christina: of giving to get.

Matt: hmm.

Christina: Instead of just giving because, wow, it just makes me feel good to give,

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: you're, you're actually going, okay, if I give this to this, then I get this.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: a little bit not

Matt: work, it doesn't work so well. Especially if you're that specific about it. If you, if I walked up to you as my, my quote unquote competition and was like, Christina, here's what I'd like to do. I'd like to promote your book, but in return I want you to promote my book because I need, that attention or whatever.

Like

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: That's just so blatantly obvious.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: do something, in this case, with no expectation of return.

Christina: Yeah. And see what happens.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: You might not get anything back in the first time, but the more you do it, the more likely you are to see that returned your way. Yeah.

Christina: on threads I didn't post anything really for me promoting me which I probably should now because. probably come to my page and go, who is she? But I made it a point, this is my point, but I made it a point to my algorithm going with, like minded people in my feed. So I started purposefully responding to people's questions. A lot of authors were also like, Oh, I just released a book today. So I'd make a point to congratulations. Happy book birthday. What are you doing to celebrate tonight? Without expecting anything in return.

Matt: Yep. Mm hmm. Mm

Christina: you know, that's how I'm hoping to grow my thread threads, organically rather than like, Hey, here I am.

If you've got these interests, come follow me. I really want, threads is, know, new. And I think it's trying not to be the other one that it's like.

Matt: hmm. Mm hmm.

Christina: without naming any X names of course it's, it's not like Instagram or Facebook. Those are more real and, photograph based.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: to be a conversation.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: you know, building those conversations will hopefully, build my audience.

Matt: Mm hmm. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a world that's a little too obsessed with likes and, and all of that sort of stuff, right? Like, and it, it's hard. Like, I, trust me. I still get caught up in it too, like, oh, I'm not getting much, traction on this post or whatever. But it's like It's fine.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: really fine.

At the end of the day, it does not matter. At the end of the day, seven years from now, I'm not going to think about that post. Right? So who cares? Just do it. Have fun with it. Like make, build your community, build your relationships, share, lift each other up. It's all going to work out.

Christina: Yeah. Find those like people and especially the like writers, because, when you're deep in your writing cave and you come across a writing issue, that's maybe somebody who can help you because they understand,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: or even just, research oriented. I, two of my clients actually have a weekly phone call with one another to help each other. Cooperatively,

Matt: Nice. Yeah.

Christina: is, is that even though writing is solitary that doesn't mean you don't others help. That doesn't mean that you don't it, that, it's very nice find someone who has the same issues.

Oh my gosh, Oh, I couldn't find the right time to write today. for whatever reason. And that other person, Oh, I hate days like that, 

Matt: I know those days well.

Christina: Oh, I was having such trouble with this character and, oh, it was telling me, he was telling me he wanted to do this and I, the story needs to go this way, but he really wants to go this other direction. Oh, I hate that when characters come and don't do what you tell them to do. Yeah. There's, there's, there's good commiseration there too, when you work cooperatively, collaboratively.

Matt: Yep, I agree. Yeah, it's interesting. I, in a sort of adjacent space, which is the art world, uh, there's an artist that I have been following for a while called, his name is Eddie Gangland and a fantastic artist has lots of really great work. But he is also very much about lifting other artists up. And so there's parts where he's donating, a certain percentage of his profits to other artists and artist funds.

Uh, there's parts where he will ask artists to tag him and he'll take a look at their work and maybe buy a piece from them, 

Christina: oh, nice.

Matt: So it's, it's different from books in that sense, because art tends to be more of a scarcity minded. There's only a certain number of these, but I think it's the same kind of concept.

Like it's, it's cool to see artists kind of helping lift each other up. And there's, if you put more art in the world, it's only going to get more beautiful. So

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: it up.

Christina: Building community.

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: that's what you need to do is you need to build your community of, people, of other writers, of not just, Industry people, but even readers, readers can always, they, they used to do these street teams. I'm not, that didn't end well for a lot of street teams,

Matt: Mm hmm.

Christina: yeah, you have this posse of people that are going to talk about your book.

Matt: Yep. Yeah. So build your community, find your people, build your relationships. Cooperate, don't compete, it'll all be okay.

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: There, nice, nice, nice little wrapped up, right? It will be great. It will be great. Awesome. Well, very good. We'll put a bow on it there. I think that matches what we intended to do.

Christina: Yep.

Matt: A little bit of freeform, but it was fun, right?

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: That's perfect.

Christina: Freestylein it tonight.

Matt: Exactly, exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, as always, my dear, always love spending time and talking, talking books with you.

Christina: Yes, I do too.

Matt: Uh, but you know what? We'll be back again soon.

Christina: cooperating with you and collaborating with you. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Matt: That's so perfect for the theme.

Christina: Bye.

Matt: Well, thank you. And thank you again for listening and have a fantastic rest of your day.

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