Creativity and Controversy: Can we separate the art from the artist?

Matt: Welcome back to Write Out Loud, the podcast where nothing's going right, right now, and everything is just a bit of a slapstick comedy. I'm Matt, and of course, I am joined by the wonderful, mystical, legendary, and luscious Christina.

Christina: Okay. Luscious is a new one.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: but mystical. I think we need to start checking the box. How many times you call me mystical, and I don't even know what that means. Like I madre mys magical mystical tour.

Matt: What is happening? See, this is what I'm talking about. We just, we are having a struggle bus of an evening, but we were talking about a topic that we thought we wanted to discuss , and that is. As writers, we are often sometimes a little worried to venture into topics that might be a little bit charged emotionally, that might be seen as, objectionable or

Christina: Yeah, it's the

Matt: controversial.

Christina: I think I would've had to look up specifically who it was, but I am sure it was from the basketball world because. The phrase was shut up and dribble.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And so if anyone knows what I'm talking about with that singers hear it a lot, you know, just shut up and sing.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: don't wanna hear anything about you, because I think in some ways the audience feels like the art is tainted now. I have always been of the mind that the artist does what they. Feel like they need to do. Most of the time I think art is controversial.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I think art has to be a little bit controversial in the sense that we don't know necessarily what the artist intended. And we are interpreting it through our own eyes.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: So, for example, the biggest one on the stage right now JK Rowling,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and that's exactly I'm trying to say, is what she is saying on the world stage versus what she said with Harry Potter. Like, to me it doesn't, it doesn't compute.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Like, how can that be the same person? And I think that's what, audiences are saying about the, shut up and dribble and shut up and sing and just, right now in the publishing world, the writing world, it's shut up and write.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But I think that books specifically are up to the interpretation the audience.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I sometimes think that a writer writes the story that they're gonna tell, it now belongs to the audience. It no longer belongs to the writer anymore. 

Matt: It's taken on such a life of its own

Christina: Right.

Matt: and it's become, it's become such a thing bigger than the person who created it, because I mean, you think about. The impact that it's had in so many different areas. Like there was just this, subset of people that really, really aligned with that story and with that universe and wanting to fit in and wanting to, even though they were different in some way but finding their own power, finding their own personal power, to help them emerge.

The, yeah, it's hard to reconcile that there was such an empowering message and such a message of like, good will prevail and love conquers all.

Christina: Yep.

Matt: And then you counter that with the authors, which that's all I'm gonna say is the authors personal views, which are horrific.

Christina: I don't think it's a stretch to even call it hate speech

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: because it's now, you know, gone to other groups of people, including the actors who portrayed the main characters. She's now basically going after them because they dared to, defend the people that JK Rowling was. Targeting,

Matt: Right. Yeah.

Christina: so. know, I, I can actually see multi points of view

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: because I don't feel that writers should be silent.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: You know, they are people behind the books, but I'm also in the camp of, like, specifically with JK Rowling. know how I feel about. Harry Potter

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I don't, I mean, and I am, know, take me back to, I remember shelving the first Harry Potter book, and seeing the cute little, oh, what a cute, and at that time it was, in the children's reading section.

So it wasn't like, I was like, oh, I wanna read this. But I remember when it came in, I remember shelving it. Because it was a cute little guy with these, broken glasses. then fast forward to the second one was out and we were starting to get memos from office saying, okay, this, these books are really starting to move

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: you know, hey, be on the lookout. so I was actually flying to Alaska and it was a six hour flight

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: I thought to myself, oh, you know what? I will get that first book I will read it. I'm on a plane. I don't need to pay attention to a children's book. I think I had read the whole thing

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: by the time we stepped off the plane, I said, get me to the nearest wealth books.

I have to get booked two.

Matt: Yeah. Nice.

Christina: And then in fact, a friend that was with us on the trip, she did a, like a scrapbook afterwards and like at the end was, and the number of Harry Potter books read. Anyway I also clearly no a before and after before Harry Potter books, after Harry Potter books

Matt: Okay.

Christina: because bookstore business readers. Changed.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: There were little kids coming in, going, I've read all the Harry Potter books, what's next? And that had never happened before. And it, it just changed the di dynamic of reading. And so I can, quantify that and I can quantify what the Harry Potter Potter books, how I interpret them.

Matt: Right.

Christina: Yeah, but then it also s like, that's not the person spewing hate that

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: books. Like,

Matt: Yeah. Well, I think guess the question is, can we separate the art from the artist?

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Should we? Should we? I don't know. We just got done with a whole episode about writing complex. Villains and antagonists, right? And learning how to make complex characters that will do things that you don't like.

But then there's other parts of them that you're like, okay, that's me, or I would do that. Or, you identify with them in some way.

Christina: Yep.

Matt: I think in some ways JK Rowland has embodied that for better or worse.

Christina: And the thing is, I can have empathy for her. I can have understanding if something happened,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: you know? I don't recall her being

Matt: No.

Christina: in the beginning. So

Matt: so good at taking down trolls on social media

Christina: yes. And

Matt: and then

Christina: become one,

Matt: she's become one. Yeah, 

Christina: yeah. Now can I separate the art from the artist? Absolutely. Because I really do feel that's something that's extremely important art.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Surpasses, whoever created it. Like it has become its own thing, its own entity. I think I can get there with the Harry Potter stuff. I think just right now she's just, just given the climate that we're living in right now, the sheer amount of money she has to use

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: those nefarious purposes I, I just, I'm gonna take a break.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: a break. And that's not to say that I believe that artists should shut up because I think invariably they write stories from that same place. So it's almost impossible

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: to not realize that the artist might be trying to change someone's mind about something.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Or try to show you a different of thinking. So no spoilers, but the last of us, season two has started and this group of fans from the TV series and the game, I did not play the game. So I am, just a TV series watcher.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But there are so many fascinating questions. I. That have no answers, that there is no right and wrong answer. Like, would you do this or would you do

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Which to me creates such depth again, when you are storytellers and creators, you can see complexity

Matt: Right.

Christina: of characters of story and most of the time. The reader can understand what someone's values, 

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: again, because of where we're living right now, the political climate, you can tell their politics,

Matt: Right.

Christina: and I think because of who I am, if you're spouting hate, I'm not interested in what you're writing right now.

Like

Matt: Right.

Christina: Roll Rowling wrote something right now. I would not pick it

Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Christina: I, that's not

Matt: Yep.

Christina: anything I'm gonna be interested in reading again. So again, I, you

Matt: Well,

Christina: kind of come to this juxtaposition of what happened from when she finished writing the Harry Potter stuff to

Matt: To what's going on now? Yeah. Well, I, but I think too, if, it's interesting for me because I think I separate Harry Potter from her current state of whatever that is horridness, because I think there, like we said, there's been such an impact. I think there's been so many people inspired by that story and that, that world and that I really.

Enjoy it. I still, I still like it. I would play the video games, I would read the books, whatever. But to your point, if JK Rowland came out with another addition to the Harry Potter story, I don't know that I would, I don't know that I would read it.

Christina: Yeah. Yeah,

Matt: Right. I think it's, it's just interesting.

Christina: Yeah, because the thing is, is that every single artist, whether intentionally or not.

Matt: mm-hmm.

Christina: Does infuse themselves into their art.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: So I think it is problematic to think to yourself that, oh, I loved the Harry Potter stuff. I would love what she does right now. No. No.

Matt: Well, and there, there was controversy even before all of this really blew up because there were, conversations being had around the way that she named her characters, Cho Chang and.

Christina: yeah.

Matt: Some of the na names that she would use that were they maybe too stereotypical or, or what have you.

And I think what's interesting about it though is you think about if her intention, so let's just, let's just play right psychologist, that if her intention was to promote diversity, that she actually wanted to show, like, I have all of these different characters from all these different backgrounds and I don't care because everybody's equal and able to be in this world.

And yet just maybe stepped in it a little with the naming.

Christina: Okay.

Matt: Right? Maybe it was perceived as being too right. Does that sort of overtake what she was trying to do?

Christina: Right. Again, this

Matt: If she was trying to do that?

Christina: Yeah. If, this is a very

Matt: I. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christina: or. If it was before, know, were people, it's one thing to see, I'm having trouble with this one too,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: you can't remove knowing how hateful she is

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: to reflecting upon the Harry Potter. So I actually think that if I read Harry Potter now, I'd have much more problems with it. Because the thing is, like you said, on one hand you can look at it and she's trying to be diverse, or now I look at it and I go, but was she it for the right reasons?

Matt: Or was it a parody? This is an Asian character.

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: That's a parody of an Asian character, right? Like was that the actual piece? Right. So it's hard. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. 'cause you're

Christina: is, this

Matt: it.

Christina: So the thing is, I have absolutely no issue an author coming out with their political

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Okay. But spewing hate,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I think is different altogether. You know? Or if their political views are hateful,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: you know?

Matt: But I think you as a writer also have to weigh the fact that, especially if you, if you know, and please don't be like this, but if you know that your views are

Christina: Problematic.

Matt: And you're just putting them out there to stir the pot or whatever, or to find, support from somewhere, you have to understand that there will be consequences,

Christina: Yes.

Matt: right? And you have to be willing to deal with the consequences. That might be things people say to you that hurt your feelings right back. That might be, people don't buy your books, people don't, like you have to take that into consideration.

But the same really goes to the other side of that coin. Even if your views are all about openness and diversity and everything else, you still will get some level of pushback.

Christina: well, you're, you. I think that's the point entirely for everyone except for or anyone else that's going to be hateful like that. But I think if you have views. And they come out in your work, we're gonna be able to read that and go, okay, this person aligns with me and this person does not.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: But I also think on, so to Kill A Mockingbird for example,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: She had a story she wanted to tell that was timely and showed,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I think that at the end of the day, you have to take those chances

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: because you're moving forward. This is the thing. When authoritarians, when dictators, when you know, use the big bed Hitler as an example, burned books.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: It is because they don't want you learning. don't want you to empathize with fictional characters. And then you might end, end up empathizing with, real life

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So I think the idea that we're talking about written word and storytelling, everything is inherently going to be controversial to somebody and

Matt: Sure.

Christina: wanna ban. That's why there's a list of banned books.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: They're always going to be something because writers, that's what they do. They push the envelope a little bit farther. This is how I want my society to look. This is what I want my society to understand. You know? I think that's why I'm so interested in this idea of resistance

Matt: was just gonna say yes.

Christina: Yes. And I think that, the definition of resistance, either it is going against the status quo or it is not.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: And I think most books, storytelling, a degree, movies and tv, not as much as books, but movie and tv, I think they are the status quo.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: think they have to be.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Because I think at the end of the day, fiction is about hope.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: What we hope happen in life,

Matt: Yep.

Christina: happens in life, and what we hope happens after

Matt: Whether it's your hope or someone else's version of hope,

Christina: Yes.

Matt: is all about hope

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: there are different versions of that. Right.

Christina: Yes, yes.

Matt: I think the, the thing I would put in here is, especially when we talk about the conversation around JK Rolling and, and the Harry Potter universe, we're not telling you.

Which way you should come down on that. You've gotta, you have to decide that for your own, you have to decide if you can separate the artist from the art, but you also have to be okay with other people deciding that they can or can't separate the two. 

Christina: And

Matt: because everybody's gonna have their own experience around it.

Christina: Yeah, and going on this theme of hope. really do hope that someday I can separate it because there is such magic what happened to the industry

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: after Harry

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: said, for me there is a before and an after

Matt: Right.

Christina: with Harry Potter,

Matt: Yep.

Christina: and that's how impactful. Those books were

Matt: I just think. For me, it's not because I don't have that experience that you did right. For me, it's the,

there was a sense of wonder that opened up along that, and a lot of people that really, really started to focus on things that were more whimsical, more fun, more, magical.

Christina: mystical.

Matt: Yeah. And it

Christina: Maybe that's

Matt: was just like everybody was in on it.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: really anybody. Of any age group that was left out. Right.

Christina: yeah.

Matt: And I think that especially with, with the themes of the overall, which is love conquers all still I think it's something that people rallied around and I don't want to lose that because I think that has become its own thing. But that again, that's me.

Christina: yeah. So I,

Matt: it's tough.

Christina: think it's interesting because as you were talking about that and saying. know, she brought all of that. Well, guess what? We're taking the wand back.

Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christina: have the power.

Matt: That's right. So, sound off. Drop us a note, leave us a voicemail, send us a text message, whatever you've gotta do, but understand that. Whatever you have to say around the topic is valid, whatever your thoughts are around it, however you feel about it, that's for you to, to decide as we've, as we've said.

But also think about it as a writer yourself. How do you want your art to be perceived? What do you want to come from your art? And just get it out there. Get your voice out there. Keep creating, keep on building. But most of all, write out loud.

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