Finding Your Ideal Editor

Finding Your Ideal Editor

Matt: [Gibberish]

Christina: Can’t started like that!  Oh, makes me so happy.

Matt: gotta shake it out, shake it out, shake it out and get it ready.

Christina: it out.

Matt: Okay. Welcome to

it's literally a minute in and I have no idea what's going on.

Christina: Oh,

Matt: No, 30 seconds, not even. Good lord, didn't even make it. Okay, let's try this again, shall we? Ha ha, mm

hmm. Welcome everyone. No, no, no, no, no. I want something better. Hold on.

Christina: Oh

Matt: I just snorted really loudly, too. All right, let's try this again. Welcome back to Write Out Loud, our podcast about all things writing, storytelling, editing, finding your inner voice, and projecting it out into the world, because that's where it belongs.

I, of course, am Matt, and I'm here with the lovely, amazing, stellar, stupendous, and incredible, Christina.

Christina: Hello.

Matt: Hello!

Christina: Wonderful intro. I

Matt: Well, thank you. I, I, I spent a lot of time perfecting that one, so, practice, practice, practice. 

Christina: As you will hear in our outtakes.

Matt: yes. Well, anywho tonight's episode, is all about finding an editor and talking about the editing process and things to look for in an editor. If you're out there seeking one red flags to watch out for things like that. And I know you've had some thoughts on this, given that this is what you do for a living.

Christina: Yes.

Matt: tell us what you look for in a client and what you would tell them to look for in an editor.

Christina: I'm actually Very different, I think, from a lot of the editors out there, because when I talk to you, I'm not, I'm not actually looking for someone who's a great writer or, looking for a particular within the work itself, that's actually what I'm here to do, is help you make that better.

So I'm not actually looking at any of that. What I actually look for and question is or not you have big dreams . You may find that surprising. But I do, I look for the people that are like, Oh my gosh, I've always wanted to do this. I've dreamed of doing this my entire life. And, I would love to just make a living at this and, Be on the bestseller list do this do that, you know that have those big dreams because if you don't then what are you doing?

Where are you spending your time? And are you gonna fall off? And I've had people do that. I mean even people that say, hey, I've got all these big dreams and I want to be a writer and that and the other thing but You know, they hire me, we've worked with, a draft or whatever, and then they just fall away.

And I think it's just simply because writing is a lot of work, a lot. And I think some people aren't looking at the full scope. So when I talk to you when I have those, introductory meetings, I call them jam sessions where we just talk about books, dreams goals. From the big ones the little ones.

Like, I just want to finish this manuscript. Okay. and then the other thing that I look for, the other component, is just this want to become a better writer. That has to be first for me. They don't want to become a better writer, then I'm the wrong person to work with. There are going to be other editors out there that are just going to critique and correct and, and do what needs to be done. I put myself in this position for a specific reason, that was because I recognized something my early career in publishing. The writers, the authors that had staying power. We're the ones that were always driving to create a better story to write a better story. there are so many writers that were at the top of their game when I was a bookseller, when I was in publishing, I was, at the home office at borders that just don't write anymore. And I think because at some point they decided either that. They didn't need to improve their writing just went on their merry way. or more than likely something we've talked about in the past and that's the burnout, they had the burnout. They, 

Matt: Stop being fun.

Christina: it stopped being fun. Yeah. And I also think part of that is that drive to write a better story. I think sometimes when you hit those New York Times numbers, contracts that are in the millions of dollars, you think there's nothing left to learn. But here's the thing that no one considers. Your audience. grows. And I don't mean by numbers, 5 people reading you. And then next thing is 10 and 20. What I mean by that is as human beings, we're constantly learning and growing who I was 5 years ago is not the same person I am. So as a reader, that also changes. So must your writing if you want to continue to carry those readers and add more. So yeah I do look for someone who is wanting to grow and if I don't hear those kinds of things, I'll give them some advice and, answer some questions, give them something for the time that we've been together, but I will probably choose not to work with them. And, and perhaps. It's also cohesiveness. if I hit it off with somebody, Hey. Let's give it a shot. But usually right away you can tell if you're not going to gel with someone. And that's probably over generalizing. Know, the editor writer relationship. But those are the, that's where I start, and as we get to know each other, there may be some specifics later if I choose to work with you again or not,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: but you know, those are, those are individualistic things.

So in general, I'm looking for. someone who has dreams that I can help them achieve someone who wants to grow their writing, to improve their writing, wants to write the best possible book that they can write in that moment.

Matt: Perfect. So on the flip side of that, what are some things if somebody is looking out that this is the first time they're kind of wading into this pool, right? They've maybe written a bit of a manuscript or maybe a whole first draft

Christina: Yes.

Matt: to start trying to find an editor and they go, where the hell do I start?

What are like, what are some things you would tell them to look for?

Christina: I'm not going to say where to start looking because I think you just, writing community, editing community, they're going to find each other if they, are meant to, the things that a writer should look for. In my opinion and actually I think I don't, I don't know that anybody would disagree with me on any side. You want somebody who is going to be your biggest cheerleader, someone who believes in you more than you believe in yourself they are going to be the person that's going to encourage you to keep going. And if don't come across as that, if they're just. I don't know. I guess there probably are some editors out there.

I'm not. This isn't me. I can't work this way. Um, if you're struggling and you don't reach out to your editor and they don't reach out to you, that for me doesn't work. Work that dynamic doesn't work. I'm not that type of editor that just edits and hands it back to you and then doesn't have a relationship with you. 

Matt: So they definitely need to be there to check in and to kind of, even if like, Hey, I haven't heard from you in a week, like. Like, what's going on? Are you okay? How's it coming along? Oh, okay. Okay. How about you

Christina: I would actually say, If I haven't heard from you in a couple of months, because, yes, sometimes get into that, first draft or, life happens. That doesn't mean we don't interact like on social media. I'm liking your posts you're, responding to. Other things. No, this is, this is more along the lines of, you haven't given me indication when you're going to turn in your book. I haven't heard from you. It's very quiet. That differentiates two from person to person. I mean, I, I have some people I've worked with a long time and I know they take X amount of time to write a book. So sometimes I'll give them that space. On the other hand um, someone I've been working with long term, I mean, on like book 11 or 12 together. She actually specifically said, Hey, I would really appreciate it if, know, if I had, if you haven't heard from me, check in, by X amount of time, and we figured that out ahead of time. But what I'm talking about is more that belief factor in you that like. I don't have to write you every day and say, yay, great job or whatever. But someone who is going to say, got this. You can write this. You can. Okay. You've got an issue. Let's see what we can do, but you've got this, so, someone that you know, you can lean on. 

Matt: Gauge that if you're looking for an editor, is there a way to kind of tell

Christina: yeah, yeah, the moment you start talking to an editor, I, I wouldn't recommend hiring anyone outright. Without spending some time with them, whether it's one conversation or two, I generally spend at least an hour or two before someone hires me. And that could be separate calls. Sometimes it's one call because you're just into what you're talking about, they're asking questions.

You're, asking your own questions as an editor. I would also say if. If an editor doesn't ask you questions, I think that's also a bit of a red flag for me.

Matt: What kinds of questions when you say if they're not asking you questions, is it specifically about your manuscript and the story you're trying to tell? Or are you looking for them to be more curious in a broader sense?

Christina: For me asking a writer specific questions I usually start with, you know, what genre is the manuscript? Like after we've kind of discussed a little bit about what their goals are, what their dreams are, getting to know them a little bit better, I would ask specific questions about the manuscript, how far they are into the manuscript, where, where are they at in the stages of writing what genre they're writing. That to me is not as important. Because a good book is a good book is a good book. I mean, I've, I've read all different genres. I don't necessarily have a preference, although, I think because I was in the romance industry prior to being an editor, I think romance authors tend to navigate way towards me simply because that's, the industry they know me from. but I've, I've edited, science fiction, I've edited women's fiction mysteries. I do tend to stay in the genre fictions. So if someone's telling me that they're writing a literary fiction, I might perhaps not encourage. but yeah, I, I just want to know where they are in their writing process too, because that also tells me. know, how far along they are as a preference, this. know, might not work for other editors, but if, if are looking for someone who's there from the beginning, that's where I prefer to be. 

Matt: Mm

Christina: make the most impact, but that's also the coaching aspect. That I'm, I'm very passionate about it because I think that the better you are in wholeness, better you

Matt: hmm.

Christina: in writing.

Like if you are struggling because you're not happy then that tends to be a little bit difficult. And sometimes that comes through in the writing. So when an author is struggling, I, I definitely like to step in and like, let's work that out.

Matt: Thinking about somebody who's looking to find an editor, what are some of the other things that we want them to, to look for in that person?

Christina: Okay. So if I were going to go look for an editor, here is what I would do my first steps. I would write down my goals. I would write down tiny baby step goals, but also the big ones. Like what is the ultimate dream? I want to be number one on the New York Times bestseller list. And my movie about that same book is coming out in theaters. Those types of dreams. I want to, make. Six figures a month on my writing, those sorts of big ones. then I would also write a checklist of things that you need from an editor that you know, you need. Like, know, I. I need somebody who is going to do this for me. I need somebody who is. So just recently I had an inquiry and she was actually telling me she needs somebody who is going to check in with her and kind of push her and motivate her.

And so I told her, okay, we can set up a schedule. If it's once per week, every other week, if you need a phone call versus an email, or if you just didn't need email to like, Hey, are you at the writing desk this morning?

Matt: Sure.

Christina: So write your checklist. Okay. If you know your strengths and weaknesses in your writing, maybe write that on your checklist too.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: somebody who is going to call me out on. You

Matt: telling versus showing.

Christina: Yes. Yes. yeah, I'd, I'd make the checklist. I'd also write a list of questions. It's important that both editor and the writer feel like they are. Um, in line with each other, this is very much, isn't like going out and hiring somebody to do your lawn, it doesn't matter necessarily how someone does your lawn, as long as it gets mowed and the areas, get trimmed and, maybe they water your plants or whatever. This is a much more personal. Relationship, think you need somebody that you are going to get along with. So that's why I said, when I get on a phone call with, with A potential potential client. I'm, I'm not thinking in terms of who are they as a writer at that point. I'm thinking, okay, what are they looking for and do I provide that same thing and do we get along? I be, can I be this person's cheerleader? Can I be someone who believes in this person?

Matt: You also have to make sure that you trust that person. Right.

Christina: That

Matt: do you like them, but you trust them because they are going to handle your intellectual property.

Christina: yes, yes. They're going to read your baby. Now while you want somebody who is going to critique you and you absolutely don't want somebody who's only going to tell you positive things, the emperor has no clothes or the emperor's new clothes or whatever

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: of that is, you literally want somebody pull you aside and say, You're not wearing any clothes.

We need to put some clothes on you, hon. you want that, but you also, you don't want someone who's only going to give you positive feedback. You want somebody who's going to give you both. Tell you the things that you do really good to encourage you to, lean into that more, but also tell you, Hey, you know what, is where you're struggling.

This is where you need some help. This is where you need some work. that also brings to mind. One thing that I think a, not a lot of people are aware of that happens and that is editors who actually rewrite your work like, Oh, it should be said this way instead of this way, or in some, in some way, changing your voice for me.

Voice of the writing is super, super important because that's what's going to attract your audience. When you think about your favorite writers, favorite authors, Stephen King, Colleen Hoover. Ashley, Ruby Dixon, Ice Planet Barbarians. It is those. Authors voices that attract me more than anything.

Yes. I like the style of writing. Yes. I like those things, but it's their voice. It's the way that they tell that story. so yeah, you want somebody who is not going to fool with that kind of stuff because that's where your audience is coming from. The other thing too, I've seen this when other know, writers have shown me their editors work, either they're questioning something or they like, some feedback from me on what was written and I have noticed editors, oh gosh, how do I put this politely, write comments and it feels like they're in competition with you. And I don't know if it's because in their past, they're a failed writer. Or they just haven't pursued their own dream of writing and they feel like there, there's like this that

Matt: It's too personal. Not

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: not about the actual work itself.

Christina: And, and sometimes it, comes across as like, again, there is criticism, but there's a way to deliver that criticism that isn't hurtful.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: No one should hand in their manuscript and get back, in the old days, all the red marker, without feedback on what's done right. Oh, I loved this part or oh, this made me feel better. X, Y, Z, it's not, it's not just about the words on the page. It's how it makes you feel as readers. That's you know, what we're looking for. We're not looking for, yeah, it's great when we have quotables and things we pull from the books, but years from now they will forget what they read, but they will not forget how the book made them feel. The Maya Angelou quote but about books. So yeah. 

Matt: So I have, I have a list of other like red flags that I found too. And I want your opinion on them. So a couple of, this Reddit thread where people, the initial poster was asking, I'm looking for an editor, what should I like, literally what we're talking about, right? I'm looking for an editor, which I look for, what are some red flags and one of the responses from laughs maniacally red flags for me, poor communication,

Christina: Mm hmm.

Matt: making it clear what to expect during the process or what style guide they use.

So depending on the kind of editor, right. And we'll talk about that in a second to,

Christina: that first one again. Cause I, I want to make a comment on that

Matt: Poor communication.

Christina: poor communication. So here's the thing. We are in vocation of words. If your editor cannot communicate properly to you. That's not an editor. not a, that's not a writer or an editor or anybody that, yeah, so,

Matt: That's a wannabe.

Christina: And

Matt: That's a wannabe

Christina: I was

Matt: not making it,

Christina: one.

Matt: not making it clear what to expect during the process or what style guide they use.

Christina: yeah,

Matt: the point I'm making on the style guide is just, and we'll talk about this in a second, but what kind of editor you're looking for.

Christina: Oh, yeah.

Matt: So we'll, we'll touch on that.

So typos in any professional communication, add website or profile. Unable to provide a sample edit. And then there's an, or, and it says examples of previous work. And I think that's probably the only one where I would go, because in most cases their previous work is somebody else's IP.

So it's probably not going to be something they can provide, but I think the sample edit is fine. Unwilling to share information about themselves or their training and education, no contract and only accepting payment methods where there is no recourse if they take your money and run, which I think is just

Christina: Well,

Matt: the last two are just general business sense.

Christina: yeah.

Matt: But those are some red flags that they had listed out. And I think what's interesting about those is they run the gamut from kind of the personality of the individual that's doing the editing. And then also like I said, kind of the general business things, right.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Are there any other red flags you would add to, to that

As additional like warning signs?

Right.

Christina: there's so many red flags simply, I mean, a lot of the things that I said, already someone who's, going to change your voice or, basically someone who's not going to be upfront on how they work. That's one of the first things that I actually tell them is that I don't I don't work like other editors.

You're not going to get the manuscript back. It's not a line edit for me. I do developmental editing. So we actually are going to get on the phone and verbalize back and forth so you can ask questions and I can tell you what's going on with, that isn't working, characters that aren't working, plot holes, things like that. You can't do that within a manuscript. Other thing I want to mention sample edits. So in some cases, yes. agree that that's a red flag. Like if you're looking for a copy editor specifically, which is, someone who is going to look at the grammar and stuff like that, you want to see where they're catching and everything. But again I don't do sample edits because I'd have to read the whole manuscript. to give you a sample. the reason I say this is because in my very, very early I had a friend who, and I think this is even before I was, in business as an editor, but I had a friend who said, can you read my first three chapters? I'm submitting them for a contest. And let me tell you that, and she wasn't looking for grammar. She was looking for, what do you think of the characters? And this, that, the other thing, well, three chapters doesn't tell you much. And so there were a couple of questions I had and the answer was always, Oh yeah, that's fixed later. don't have that information. It's not in front of me. And so I was literally like, okay, I, how do you do sample edits for something that. don't have the whole picture for. So I, I purposely decided that I wouldn't do sample edits. That doesn't mean I don't give you connections with clients. I often connect my potential clients with clients that have worked with me and can give them feedback. Not a sales pitch, a feedback. This is how she does it. This is what she, does. 

 Oh yeah, this is, this is what she does. This is the feedback. This is how she does it like a bigger picture. It gives them a little bit bigger picture about what it is that I do. Yeah. It's very it's very hard to give, the umbrella of this is how all editors work because everyone works differently because we're also doing different things, there are. There are many different types of editors. There is a line editor who does take it line by line by line. Are grammar editors, copy editors who are just going to focus on the grammar that's usually later in the process. The editing I specifically do is developmental editing, which is developing your story further.

Bye. So I generally don't cut things. I add things

Matt: sure.

Christina: this is missing. There's a plot hole here. This doesn't work. You've got to rewrite this or you've got a too many questions here. It's confusing or things like that. Bigger picture, items.

Matt: It's a really important to know then what kind of editor

Christina: Yes.

Matt: Specific to your checklist too. Cause you were, you were kind of talking about the checklist they should make, which is, I need help here. I need help here. And honestly, you should probably have one of each of those editors probably. Yeah.

Christina: So interestingly enough, I didn't find this out until years later, but one of my favorite writers, someone asked her, I don't know if they asked her specifically how many editors you have or what is your editing process like? And she has like five editors

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: That seems excessive.

Matt: A lot. Yeah.

Christina: That's a lot. But the way that she explained it, that's what works for her because couple of them are proofreaders where their first early readers, they give her feedback before she sends it to her developmental editor. So, that's how her process works. Then she would send it off to, copy editor and, send it out to another proofreader at the end. To see and it really does depend on what works for you, but in general, I would tell people no less than 3 different eyes on it. The reason I say that is because I can't find it all as an editor. No, 1 editor is going to find it all. Even when you have 3 different eyes on it. 1 is going to find all the mistakes. still inevitably going to be mistake that you're going to have to, start writing them down them back in, to update the files to, when the next printing comes out, or if you've, self published when the next time you're going to update your files at the retailers and all that kind of stuff. I think it really depends on what works for you, but I would say no less than 3, no less than

Matt: Nice. Where are some places that if somebody was looking for an editor to, kind of undertake this process that we've just described, where should they go? Where are some places to look? What, where do we point them?

Christina: If you're connected with writing communities, there's, a bunch online, Facebook has a gazillion writers groups. If you're involved in a writer's group, in some way, ask them they

Matt: Sure.

Christina: that they can recommend. And I think recommendations. Work for both ends. It works for the writer and it works for the editor. would say three fourths of my clientele are recommendations from my other clients. There's only a small percentage that finds me via some other way without having known, some of my previous clientele. I find that works really well simply because those people then have a reputation. Those people have shown success with other writers. you can see what they've done. And then see, reach out and contact them and see if you, gel, as a pair. otherwise if you, if you don't have a writing community I had a client last year literally said she doesn't know anybody. just typed in, book coach into the, search engine and said that my name kept popping up. And so, clicked on it, wrote me an email,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: we've been working together for now more than a year.

Matt: That's perfect. What if they want to work with you? How do they do it?

Christina: If they want to work with me they can find me at Christina at bookmatchmaker.

com and that is spelled C H R I S T I N A at bookmatchmaker. com or even just, us here at write out loud metal, make sure that it gets to me. Yeah, I'm always open to new clients. Like I said, as long as we fit well together, I'll hop on the phone with you. If at the very least we decide to part ways at the end of the phone call, you'll get some good nuggets of information or some questions answered that you, really wanted. To know from an editor.

Matt: Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. One other, one other question, just more about the, the editing process. I know, we talk about the, the first draft being kind of the mess. And then the second draft, we start to make something out of it, right? Like how many, how many drafts do we think are going to potentially come out of an average session?

Should they prepare themselves for?

Christina: at least two or three. If you're a first time writer, probably closer to the three mark. My seasoned writers generally, I rarely, I think rarely do I do a third. So yeah, I think it just depends on where you are in the stage of your writing career. If you're newer, newer to it, you may need three. But generally two is good because that first one, someone said this to me once and I find it to be really true. The first one is you telling yourself the story and then, know, the second draft is taking a step back and going, okay, this is what needs to happen. And then rearranging it and saying, okay, this works, this doesn't work. A third draft is generally going to be the grammar and things like that. As far as from beginning to end you're probably going to do at least three or four because you're going to want to look at grammar and proofread towards the end of the writing part before you publish. Or before you send it to an agent or a New York editor or something like that.

Matt: Sure. Okay. So prepare yourself for that. And again, this kind of goes back to, what you had said that the writing is work, right? The writing is going to have work that you need to put in and you need to be passionate about that work

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: so that you don't get into it and go, Oh, I was just doing this cause it was fun.

And now I don't want to do the, like, this is not fun. So peace,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Like you've got to, you've got to really want it.

Christina: yeah, I think, the funny thing is, is that when people hear that you work in the publishing industry and I don't think it's any different from when I was in different aspects of publishing, even, as a bookseller, as a marketer. Doing all the different things. I would still hear, I nine times out of 10, nine times out of 10 people have a book in them.

Oh, I've always wanted to write a book. Okay, great. Go do it. I mean there's a very special type of person can actually Write it and pursue publishing. And by pursue publishing, I mean, hire an editor, get it looked at, submit it to, an agent or like I said, New York editor, or even that publish button if you go indie there are people that I've worked with in the past still haven't published. So it does take a really special person to get that far in their writing to hire an editor, to pursue publishing.

Matt: And maybe that person is you. Awesome. All right. Well, I think we've got enough there to help our, our friend make his way or her way to editing and have a little bit more understanding of what's going to go into that. So awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you for walking us through that. I think we learned quite a bit from it and until next time, just get that writing done.

Just start writing. Just write, write, go write. Turn off the podcast, right? Let's go, right. All right. Well, very good. Thank you, my dear, as always,

Christina: Thank you.

Matt: and thank you for listening until next time. Bye.

Christina: Bye .

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