Storytelling Hot Takes

[00:00:45] 

Matt: Welcome back to Write Out Loud, the storytelling podcast where we pull back the curtain on writing, storytelling, and everything that makes your creative brain tick. I'm Matt, and as always, I am joined by the radiant, the unstoppable burst of sunshine herself.

Christina.

Christina: I don't know if I'm such a ray of sunshine today, but see.

Matt: I think you are.

Christina: young.

Matt: I think you are. Well buckle up because you're gonna need all of that energy. You're gonna need it all today. We are diving into something a little bit spicy, but.

Christina: Ooh,

Matt: Not spicy in the sense that you might be thinking. Today we're gonna talk about storytelling hot takes, right?

So this is the bold opinions, the controversial craft advice that's out there, that things that writers whisper, but don't say out loud sometimes because they don't want to angry onslaught of emails from their readers or other authors or what have you. Uh, but we're gonna talk about them today.

And we're just gonna do it rapid fire [00:01:00] style. So I'm going to shoot it out. I'm gonna have you respond and then I'll tell you if you're right or wrong.

Christina: Uh, no, I'm gonna tell them if they're right or

Matt: Oh, got it, got it, got it. Sorry, I missed that.

Christina: I have vastly opinions, uh, just from the sheer number of years I've been working in the publishing industry. Honest to God, I, a lot of the, hot takes that, I'm gonna. Quote unquote, I'm gonna say something, that's gonna tick people off or whatever. Because I think a lot of people think outside of the industry, think if you're a brand new author, think have to listen to all the different, like, this person is successful so

Matt: Oh yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Christina: and that's just not the case.

Matt: Yep.

Christina: is. Different for everybody. So it'll be interesting to see what these hot takes are and how I can dismantle them.[00:02:00] 

Matt: Oh yeah, 100%. 100%. Okay. First one. You ready for 

Christina: I am ready.

Matt: Prologues are or are not? Overrated.

Christina: Oh God, this is gonna get so interesting because the real answer is it depends. There are some people who do a great prologue. One of my clients, Kat Porter. She is a genius at these prologues. They are poetic and tied to something, in the middle of the book.

And it really kind of opens the door to the story.

Okay. To me, that's fantastic use of a prologue, bad use of a prologue. Info

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: things that you need to know before the story starts.

Matt: Interesting.

Christina: my hot take. It depends on the writing and how you are using prologue.

Matt: Got it. Okay. I have to say overrated and only because I [00:03:00] always skip them. I don't think I've ever read, I don't think I've ever read a prologue.

Christina: See, I'd be afraid I was missing some vital information.

Matt: I think it's, personally, I think that's why it's overrated, because I think if you're putting vital information in a prologue, it should have just been in the rest of the story to begin with.

Christina: Well, but it is part of the story 'cause it's the prologue,

Matt: Yeah. But to me, it feels like it was tacked on, like a prologue feels like something goes tacked on because we didn't quite cover it in the story or, you know what I mean? Like it just, so I'm like, no.

Christina: happens when it's called chapter one, you'll read it, but

Matt: Yes,

Christina: prologue, you won't.

Matt: correct.

Christina: there you go. There's your hot take. People don't ever name anything a prologue

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: they view chapter one.

Matt: Yep. Some people, maybe just me. It could be just me, but I, it, 

Christina: i, again there are a few instances where I feel like has to be a prologue because it's really. Not quite part of the story. There's another author, I'm thinking of Julie Garwood, who wrote a book called Saving Grace Little [00:04:00] Hot Take of My Own. I actually used it for a women's studies class on why romances our Feminist fiction,

Matt: Oh, okay.

Christina: because the opening is actually, so it's a historical don't ask me the years, I could, not for the life of me tell you, but it's, 

Matt: mm-hmm.

Christina: In history, Scottish history and specifically with the, uh, Catholic church, there was a bishop who believed that women were the last in God's love.

Matt: Oh,

Christina: taught the children of the village. And it ends, the prologue ends with, this is a story about a girl who knew differently.

Matt: okay.

Christina: So, you

Matt: That's clever.

Christina: it gets you, oh, okay, this story is gonna be a little bit different than, what I'm expecting. So I think there are uses and really great writers can use it very well.

Matt: Okay, I'll, I'll take that. I'll take that. I like it. I like it.

Christina: but

Matt: right. Second. No, no, no, no.

Christina: If you don't know how to work it, don't use [00:05:00] it.

Matt: Second one, adverbs are allowed.

Christina: Oh God. This whole thing is gonna be, it can work and it can't work. mean, here's the thing. quote unquote rules can be broken if done in the right way.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any rule out there that I would say absolutely do not do it unless it's like, no info dump, again, it all depends on the writer.

Matt: But if somebody came to you and said the opposite of that, if they said, adverbs are not allowed, no, you can never have ad adverbs.

Christina: See, that would make me want to break every single rule there and put in the adverbs,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: and write it in such a way. Here's the thing you have to remember, of my golden rules that I use with all of my clients, even myself, with life with. Anything is there is always a door number three.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Nothing is either or. There's either or neither. Both, I mean [00:06:00] there, there are so many ways to do things, but the thing is you have to be a writer and find your way through it. So if you're sitting there going, I am going to break this verb rule. I believe that you can do it. I believe that you can do it and you can do it well,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and I'm sure there is an out there, writer out there who knows how to do exactly that,

Matt: Yeah, I think if, I think if you're using an adverb in every single sentence, then it's probably it's probably you're not using it well, like it's probably overkill at that point. Right? So use it when it makes the impact to the story. When it helps the story in some way.

Christina: 100%. Absolutely. In agreement with you on there. And, but that goes for everything else too. If

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: use one way of writing, you are overusing it.

Matt: Yeah, that's true.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: All right. Next hot. Take a story. Can survive a bad plot, but not bad [00:07:00] characters.

Christina: I'm a broken record. No, I think this one is mostly true.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Again, it's one of those things that I, don't believe in absolutes. there is probably a person out there who says, I can write completely bad characters. But if it's a super unique plot, people might overlook it.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: There's actually, it's interesting that. You know this, this pops into mind. I have not watched it, but there's a new show on Apple TV called Pluribus and it is by the creator or creators of Breaking Bad. And there is a little bit of debate going on because the main character not likable. So. I have not seen it. So I cannot com say this with, with proof. but are loving the show

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and [00:08:00] the argument is most people are saying is that she supposed to be unlikable. She is. That she is who she is, and it goes along with the plot. And again, I haven't seen it, so I'm not gonna speak much more to it. So I do think. You can have a really interesting plot and an unlikeable character,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: will still be interested in it. Now, I also believe with absolute certainty that you can have these great, great characters and I could care less what you did with them. could be, reading the cereal box and if they're done in their character that I absolutely adore. gonna love them reading the cereal box because it's either gonna be poignant or funny or heartfelt or, whatever the case may be. So am I leaning more towards one or the other? Absolutely. I think, I think long as you have great character and character development,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Won the day.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Christina: think if you have a great plot and not great characters, you [00:09:00] are going to struggle. Not saying that you can't be a success, but you are gonna struggle to find and keep your audience because we don't connect to plot, we connect to characters.

Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I, I do think it's a bit of a balanced, as you said, kind of like you do kind of have to have, they have to have something, so it can't just be a flat line plot and then great characters. But I think, I think if you have more engaging characters, you're, you are more likely to overlook a plot issue.

Christina: Yeah, except for the fact that there are a lot of out there who write little vignettes

Matt: Yeah,

Christina: with their characters, and it doesn't matter what they're doing. 

Matt: true. 

Christina: Ward has these oh God, what does she even call 'em? Like in, I don't know, insights, something like that. And one of 'em was like movie night with the characters. And so like they were all gathered around watching whatever movie and I mean, it was so cute

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: I could have a hundred of those. 'cause

Matt: Okay.

Christina: characters that she writes.

Matt: Yeah,

Christina: You

Matt: that's fair.

Christina: that is after how many, books she's had,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: [00:10:00] developing those, those characters. So,

Matt: Yeah. True. That's true.

Christina: I'm gonna sound like a broken record that it's, 

Matt: well, I mean, I think all of them are gonna be nuanced to some degree, but

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: right, here's the next thing, next. Hot take. Most writers don't actually need more world building. They need more plots.

Christina: Oh. That one is difficult because that one is very much dependent on the writer.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Read it once again. Let me,

Matt: Yep. Most writers don't need more world building. They need more plot.

Christina: Uh, again, I, uh, I, I wanna lean towards mostly true.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Like, uh, princess Bride, he's only mostly dead.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Mostly true because I do think a bad habit, sci-fi fantasy writers can get into focusing on the world building only and losing the plot. And [00:11:00] I think that, yeah, I, uh, like I said, I think that one is gonna be mostly true with exceptions,

Matt: Okay. Okay.

Christina: 'Cause I think, world building is very important, but it's not the whole thing. So

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: think that one's, that one's more like, I'd have to see it on an individual basis for it to, really make me give an answer.

Matt: Yeah. I think for me at least, I think more plot is definitely going to go further. I think some people can over-engineer their world so they, they build too much of it, like I think of in some cases. Uh, even Tolkien to some degree had a little bit too much world building versus just moving things along.

George R. Martin. He, he particularly has way too much world building. 

Christina: Yeah, but he also has really good plot,

Matt: Correct the plot, balanced it out and made it, made it way better, which is fine. [00:12:00] So I'm not, I'm not dogging on their works in general, but I'm just saying like, they, they definitely went too far. Right. This is just my personal opinion, I think you've give enough of the world to help the reader.

With their like envisioning of it. But you leave enough open for them to also sort of envision what they think it looks like

Christina: Right.

Matt: They can kind of add their own details to it and add their own kind of nuance. Mm-hmm. And I think you just, I don't know. I think it gets better that way.

'cause sometimes you describe a character or a place if we're talking world building in this case and you might describe it in a way that they didn't even envision that. So then they're kind of looking at going, oh, that's not what I thought That was. Like, that's weird. Or it could take them out of it.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: So, all right, so next, next one. Too many writers hide behind show Don't tell. Because they're scared of clarity.

Christina: Okay, so I don't really understand what that one means. How do they hide behind Show, not tell.

Matt: I, [00:13:00] I, the way I take it is sometimes. You have authors who are so scared that they're going to tell and not show that they wind their way around getting to the point because they, they feel like they have to do it through a show versus tell, right. Where sometimes if, if, if the situation is not that impactful, like it sometimes is okay to just, just tell us about it.

Like, tell us what it is,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: things along.

Christina: So this one is a little more complicated for me to answer because I. I don't know that I've ever come across anyone who does too much show, because I think show is a hard idea for people to understand and continue to do Even clients that I've worked with that know how to do show will. Do tell, tell, tell. And then, [00:14:00] you kind of have to circle back around and go back to show.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: so I, don't really feel like anyone is hiding behind show. I think if they're striving to do more show and leaving, tell behind, like, so if we're talking in general terms, so this is not, know, correct. Across the board ab an absolute

Matt: Yep.

Christina: if you strive to do show, you probably will find your balance between show versus tell.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: don't think you can ever get into the, it's all too much show.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Like I, I can't think of one example as like, oh my

Matt: Ouch.

Christina: too much show. and I think that as long as you are aware of to do show. I, I think you're, in the clear, the people that I worry about with statement [00:15:00] is actually the people who aren't aware of how to do show

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: and the info dump and the, character talking to themselves in their

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Okay? There still is deep point of view, but it's much less. You are seeing more of the action than you're hearing. The thoughts in first person, you do tend to do bits of info dump because you're in head [00:16:00] all the time, you can fall into that. So, again, my hot take on this, I think you should reverse that and

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Someone who over tells needs to do some more show. I again, hey, anybody can find us that one book that does overs showing and it's not good because they overs show,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: bring it on.

Matt: Yep. I think it's, it's. One in a hundred kind of thing, or one in a thousand kind of thing, where it's like you're not gonna fight it that often. Probably. I, I, I agree with you most on that one.

Christina: One in 10 million.

Matt: One in 10 million. Okay. That's fair. That's fair. The villain is just the protagonist with better boundaries.

Christina: Oh, that's interesting.

Matt: It is

so like antagonists who actually believe. Yeah, they're right.

Christina: yeah, they're a good person. And they're

Matt: Yep.

Christina: they are. But I think that. All villains are that

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: there is a villain that goes out there and [00:17:00] says, the villain.

 I'm the evil person world. And 

Matt: yeah, because even, even if you think about books like Silence of the Lambs, like Hannibal Lecter did not.

Christina: oh yeah,

Matt: Believe he was a bad person. He was,

Christina: No,

Matt: he was actually killing people that were rude, disrespectful, like bad people.

Christina: He was literally just a literary device

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: to tell her story and how she developed as, a profiler.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So, I mean, he had his uses. So yeah, he was absolutely the protagonist of that story and not necessarily the villain. I don't, I don't believe every story has a villain.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Almost every story has to have some sort of protagonist. whether that protagonist is an actual person or the protagonist is a journey

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: the person must, or a challenge, I guess the character [00:18:00] must go through.

Matt: Yeah,

Christina: So,

Matt: I think like Darth Vader, I think he, he legit thought he was doing the right thing for the right reasons and really that he was trying to bring his son over to, to that side. He's like, no, join us like you can.

Christina: so this is interesting. Actually think George Lucas, know, I. love to sit down and, and chat with him

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: the creation of Star Wars because I think making Star Wars, know, episode four is technically what it is,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Wars number 1, 19 77 Star Wars. I'm not actually sure he knew it was gonna be more than one. So did he really have everything plotted out in the next two films? I'm not sure that he did,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Because the whole Luke and Leah are twins thing and

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: I am your father. 

Matt: Yep.

Christina: so I don't, yeah, I think in the first one he truly was, the [00:19:00] villain of the whole thing. And in fact, at that time we didn't even really know much about the emperor.

Matt: Sir.

Christina: And again, I think that comes down to, if you see the whole arc, yes, he was absolutely a protagonist.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: you're looking at just the first, 1977 movie, was more of a villain than a protagonist because

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: know anything about him other than he wanted power and he wanted to, 

Matt: rule everything. He was big, bad, scary.

Christina: Kill, kill the rebellion.

Matt: Yep. Yep. Okay. Here's a good one for you. Uh, as a hot take. Romance doesn't need conflict. It needs tension.

Christina: So this is like, splitting hairs here. I mean,

Matt: It kind of is.

Christina: intention. I, okay,

Matt: So here's, here's the qualifier, right? Just to, to not make it quite so hair splitting lovers don't have to fight to be interesting.

Christina: Okay, [00:20:00] so you're actually talking about is inner conflict versus outer conflict. there a conflict in the relationship? Is there a conflict outside of the relationship that drives the story?

So that's my take on that. And that's why I said it's splitting hairs 'cause tension. You can bring tension into the relationship and you can bring tension from outside the relationship and in.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: We've had Kristin Ashley on the podcast. Everybody here knows I'm a big fan of hers and she does a unique job in my view of that tension in the beginning. Within the relationship, but at some point that goes away. And it's the outer conflict, outer tension brings the, the, the, the, the conflict of the story, the plot of the story, the, the tension and all of that.

And they become a team. And to me that's more fulfilling than like they [00:21:00] are. Enemies through the whole book. And then finally they go, okay, let's, be more than that. Let's, 

Matt: yeah,

Christina: enemies to lovers. That plot device, I don't, don't care for it. That's again

Matt: I think it's old and tired.

Christina: well, and not even old and tired, I gotta go back to Kristin Ashley 'cause she does it the best where I actually see this couple being successful after the book closes. I believe that they're going to be together for the rest of their lives because they not only, had, whatever tension between them in the beginning, but they also had this partnership,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: Teamwork. This, us against the world sort of view and seeing that is actually to me, what makes me close the book and say, yep, they're together forever. I don't need to. See anymore. Whereas with other stories, like, again, enemies to lovers and like, if you [00:22:00] don't make me understand why they're together,

Matt: Understand why.

Christina: will not break.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: They won't divorce five books down the down the line or, breakup or whatever if they've not married. Then. Is it a romance?

Matt: Yeah. That's fair. That's fair. How about this one? Flashbacks aren't the problem Overuse and bad timing are.

Christina: Oh, I would agree with that statement. Again, nuanced and there's always someone who's gonna challenge the norm, who's gonna do a great job of it, because that's a writer's

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: But

Matt: But generally.

Christina: As a statement, I, would agree with that.

Matt: Okay. I like that. That was the, the shortest one of our. Of our hot takes here, which is good.

Christina: Yeah,

Matt: funny. And then our last one.

Christina: wrong with it. If you want me to.

Matt: No, no, no, no. You're good. The last one is this side characters shouldn't be more interesting than your main character.

Christina: Oh my

Matt: my gosh.

Christina: [00:23:00] is a hill I will die on. How

Matt: How did.

Christina: this? Because this is the hill I will die on. I yell at every single writer

Matt: That

Christina: ever

Matt: I have ever worked with

Christina: If your side

Matt: character,

Christina: overtake the

Matt: story.

Christina: it is no longer that other couple's story.

Matt: Okay.

Christina: Or even just characters in general. If there is a side character that overtakes the entire story, then it is that has become the main character. Okay.

Matt: Yep,

I agree with that.

Christina: using romance as the example if I am starting to think of the side characters, like their story is coming up in book two or three or four, wherever it's coming down the line. I am no longer interested in the current book and I'm, four books ahead. You do not want that.

Now. You do want characters. people are [00:24:00] gonna love and side characters that people are gonna love, especially if you're gonna develop them.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: they should never take over the story.

Matt: Okay. I agree with you. I'm, I'm, I have no disagreement, no notes.

Christina: on.

Matt: Well, awesome. Well, that's gonna wrap up today's deep dive into the world of storytelling Hot takes. Whether you loved them, hated them, or you're still side eyeing us over the prologue comments. If one of these sparked your interest, if this inspired you or if this made you yell, no, absolutely not.

Listen, we've accomplished our mission. So grab that pen, grab that keyboard, whatever you've used, but just get out there. Create and remember to write out loud. I.

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