The Art of Uncertainty: Crafting Stories for the Modern Audience

The Art of Uncertainty: Crafting Stories for the Modern Audience

Matt: [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to write out loud the podcast about storytelling, authorship, creativity, and all the fun stuff that goes along with that. So let me ask you a question. What if a story ended that was it. No explanation, no real answers, just a choice, and you are left to wrestle with it. There's a famous story that does exactly that, and today we're using that as part of a jumping off point to talk about ambiguity, attention, and really what happens to storytelling in a world where a lot of TV and movies assume you're also on your phone. I'm Matt, and of course I'm joined by the brilliant, the bubbly, the endlessly insightful, the human embodiment of a highlighter and a perfectly timed await. But what if Christina?

Christina: What, what I'm stuck on, what is the human embodiment of a highlighter? What, what does that even [00:01:00] entail or mean? Is this Wait, wait. Yeah. I was just gonna say, is this, is this part of that ambiguity

Matt: It could be, it could be.

Christina: the reader and the listener in this case has to decide what a, an embodiment of a highlighter actually means.

Matt: Exactly,

Christina: Oh god.

Matt: But it

Christina: Alright.

Matt: because,

Christina: it does.

Matt: we're, we're talking about those stories that are really, maybe they end a little differently than you're used

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: storytelling that has evolved in this age of TV and smartphones.

Christina: Yeah. So it's a concept that I've known about, gosh, I remember reading it in Mrs. Gore's English class in like. The seventh grade, I think it was it's a tale called The Lady or the Tiger. And I was under the impression that everybody knew about this, that this was required reading for everybody.

But in our discussion I discovered you had [00:02:00] not ever heard of this. And so, in case the audience hasn't, I'm going to sum it up in just a couple sentences. So not the actual story, but just what it means the lady or the tiger. It is a classic short story by Frank r Stockton. It was first published in 1882 in like a.

Uh, magazine or journal or something like that. Set in a semi barbaric kingdom, it's renowned for its unresolved cliffhanger ending that leaves the protagonist fate to the reader's imagination. So basically what happens at the end of this story, the the character and I. Believe he's male is about to open this door.

And behind the door is either a lady or a tiger. And of course, one, uh, leads to hope and happiness. And the other, of course, opening the door to a tiger would [00:03:00] certainly lead to death. If not, pain

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: and suffering. And the story ends. Just as he's opening the doors, so the reader never finds out who's on the other side.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: And so I, again, I thought this was a concept everybody knew about in the literary world. But guess not. Uh, because now we are going into no spoilers, no discussions. It is just a point of reference because this is where the idea popped up, is the Stranger Things finale has happened. I am not going to talk about it in any context other than to say the Duffer brothers used this literary device and it is a literary device because, I can guarantee you more of writers and storytellers know about this.

Then don't, I mean, there are gonna be some that don't, just because they don't.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: [00:04:00] But I, I, I absolutely guarantee you in that writer's room of Stranger things, they were well aware of what literary device they were using.

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: Because that's how it ended. It ended very ambiguous. It gives you two ideas about how the story ends at this point.

Uh, I'm saying at this point, because they are closing this chapter, who knows where it can go. There's a lot of places that it can go. Uh, but again, no spoilers. We're not talking about that. We're talking about the idea here, that the story ends. And it actually puts it into, in this case, the viewer's hands.

But as storytellers, it's into the audience's hands. What do they believe happened? What do they believe? Is the real thing that happens after, the man opens the door. Is there a lady or is there a tiger? And I actually in particular, think that the [00:05:00] duffer brothers. Because the fandom is astronomical and it's been building for 10 years, they were never going to end it where everyone was happy.

And so they actually came up with what I consider, you've heard me talk about it on this podcast door number three, where, hey, let's let the audience choose what they believe happened.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: So, there is that piece of it. But there's also another piece of it that you and I are also gonna get into today.

Uh, because what happened after on social media is just, I actually think quite ridiculous because it comes down to there are some people that watch this and are like, so confused What happened? Why don't we know They've gotta tell us. I demand that. They tell us what happened.

Matt: Oh yeah.

Christina: Uh, no, that's not the point.[00:06:00] 

The point is you are not being spoonfed the answers you are being given. And this is a true gift, a gift. You are being given the gift of deciding how you see the story ending for them. And a lot of stories don't give you that. They either do one thing or the other. Two things can happen.

Again, hearkening back to Lady or the tiger I always choose to believe that he opened the door to a lady, because that's the world that I choose to live in. That's where my imagination goes. That's far more interesting than opening the door to a tiger, and then the story is truly over.

There's nothing that can be done.

Matt: Right.

Christina: is, 

Matt: that's it.

Christina: Essentially toast.

Matt: Yeah.

I

Christina: so

Matt: interesting to think about that perspective though too of you. You could, like, you have this storytelling device that's being used one of those [00:07:00] options points you in one direction that maybe does have more, that could have happened, right? It could continue

Christina: Oh yeah.

Matt: so again, to your point, like you can, you can take that route and go, oh, this is what I think actually happened long afterwards. mean, think about even like Gone with the Wind. Same kind of

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: Like at the end, Scarlet's, like wondering what her life could have been like or would've been. I think it's the other side of that coin.

Then the other option being very limited, where it's like,

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: way, it's just done. There's nothing

Christina: Yep.

Matt: there's nothing to

Christina: Yep.

Matt: I think it, it in some ways also feels a little bit like a personality test. It's like, do you, which one do you choose for

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: There's so many different. Ways to read into that about one's personality, right? Depending on which one

Christina: Right.

Matt: and, and why you chose that one. Mm-hmm.

Christina: Yeah. And I think, in today's day and age, the idea that. You have to be given the answers that you cannot. And, and this actually is a point that, I think we'll talk about down the road the idea that AI can influence [00:08:00] an entire society into not creatively coming up with their own.

Ideas and answers that AI has all of the answers and we no longer have to think for ourselves. Critical thinking in books and literature, and I've, I've said this to you, a thousand times I've said it on this podcast reading. Watching TV shows like Stranger Things or the other greats, I really feel helps us grow as human beings, helps us learn gives us things that aren't going to be handed to us.

And I think that's the point, the idea that. In today's day and age, everything is so immediate and we need immediate answers. We can't think for ourselves. We can't, I, the idea that someone watched the finale of Stranger Things and said, I don't know what happened, makes me wanna like [00:09:00] smack myself on the head and go, oh my God, what kind of world are we living in?

That people can't create their own like idea. Of like, how could this go this way and how can it go that way? I don't know. And the Duffer brothers from the very beginning were fantastic storytellers. I've said this throughout the time that it's been on. When it first came on I think I was still, just a few years into if not just.

Maybe a year or two into working with authors as an editor. And I even did a class based on season one of Stranger Things because they were taking something so unique and you, there's. There's argument whether or not they're using previous ips, like they relied heavily on the eighties and Stephen King, and you can see that throughout the seasons, the different [00:10:00] influences.

But it was still a unique story.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: It was still an original story in a day and age where almost every single movie and TV show that comes out is either a sequel, a reboot. Or based on previously published, whether it's comics or a, a game or, uh, an adapted

Matt: Right.

Christina: idea to have something so original that you go into it, you know me.

This is a time where I watching it. I get to just totally let go of everything, go, oh my gosh, what are they gonna do?

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know anything. I haven't read the books. I haven't read the, there aren't any books to read that sort of thing. So for them to take it and do this and people to still question, well, what happened?

I need to know the answers. Well,

Matt: I

Christina: dudes, you are not getting the [00:11:00] answers. They're leaving it ambiguous, at least for now. And uh, I think people that are going to participate and being an audience have to start looking at things differently, and they have to start using their critical thinking.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: are not going to be always spoon spoonfed answers, and I would make the argument, I'd rather not be spoonfed the answers and be left with this sort of ending where it's lady or the tiger than a definitive ending that I was not satisfied with because this way I get to make my own satisfaction.

Matt: Yeah, like you said, you get to participate in that. And I think kind of talked before as we were gearing this up, you know this episode about an article that we had read previously where there is also this dumbing down of. Of storytelling, dumbing down

Christina: Yes, yes.

Matt: they are assuming that people are on their phones or on their iPads or on their other, [00:12:00] other devices at the same time.

And the extent of which that's true and it is, and I know just from personal experience, several people that cannot watch something on TV or, watch a movie without being on their phone for, for whatever reason. and there are times I pick up my phone, but it's usually because I'm looking up and. Actor to see where I

Christina: Yeah, I am db.

Matt: yeah, IMDV. Like, where do I know? I don't know. I don't know why that's a game we play, but it is.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: again, this dumbing down of storytelling so that you can accommodate for those folks that aren't necessarily watching at that moment. We'll often make, make comments at times when you'll hear dialogue in a TV show.

It's like, maybe two FBI agents and one says, oh, well, I guess we should probably arrest them. And you're like, well. No shit, Sherlock. Like

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: that's what you're supposed to do,

Christina: And that circles back

Matt: tell that story who isn't necessarily paying full

Christina: paying attention. Yeah. They're not a hundred percent paying attention. And that also circles back to [00:13:00] the show versus tell if you've gotta tell the audience you're gonna arrest somebody rather than showing them you're arresting somebody. I mean, to me that's like.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, I can see that happening. You don't have to tell me that it's happening, but yes, having read that article saying, Hey, people are on their phones constantly. And there's just a little, little piece that I wanna share having to do with being on your phone and stranger things. So since season two, season one was out.

Previously, and I had watched it before I introduced my niece to the show. But from season two on, she and I have always watched, the season together as soon as it came out and we'd binge it. And yes, for those asking, we would get up in the middle of the night, two o'clock in the morning when it came out at that time, uh, to watch it because that was something that we did together.

And that was, bonding for us. And at this point, she's. [00:14:00] On her phone more than she's not, uh, she's of an age that she's doing that. And it was funny because one of my friends asked, well, how did she like it? And I said, well, she never actually said how she felt about it,

Matt: It's

Christina: but she never picked up her phone.

Matt: Okay.

Christina: In the watching of it, she never picked up her phone. She was engaged, she was watching, she was experiencing. And so yeah, to kind of give that perspective, that's what good storytelling

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: do. So the thing is, rather than writers writing to an audience. That, oh, they're gonna be on their phone, so I have to dumb it down, or to bring it to, novel writing, fiction writing. Uh, you don't have to dumb down your story

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: if you're keeping them interested and engaged,

Matt: [00:15:00] Right.

Christina: So yeah, I, I think it's actually the responsibility and, what writers should be doing. They should be doing what Stranger Things did. They took risks.

They took a risk doing this, this ambiguous, ending. But I think it was the right risk because it challenges the audience to think, to imagine. And we need a world that thinks and imagines and is engaged in. The action. But yeah, it's clear That that article is absolutely on point that people are expecting, or I should say, uh, a segment.

Because there is, the other segment and this was another point we were gonna bring into this, but I don't know how deep we're gonna get with this. I don't think very, but we've talked about it before, Malcolm Gladwell and the idea of his 80 20 tipping point. And in this case, 80% [00:16:00] loved it, loved the way that they ended it, and actually engaged with each other on theories of why they think it was the lady or the tiger.

Matt: Point of almost conspiracy theories, right?

Christina: well, yeah, I mean, and then they get into the conser conspiracy theories, but I actually think it's more the 20% that were like, I don't get it. First of all, those people that are like, I don't get it. And people have to explain, well, here's what happened. If you go back and watch,

Matt: Right.

Christina: Those people.

Maybe are hanging more onto those conspiracy theories because they don't have answers and they're saying, because I don't have answers. And the conspiracy theory Matt was joking about is I told them before we came on air is that there is a group of conspiracy that and gosh, what do they call it?

I can't remember what they called it that the whole season. Was, not what it was. And that there is [00:17:00] one more secret episode that is being released early January. So it's like, I, I don't know how you can think that because I think it was very clear, but I think it's because of some of the things that happened, avoiding spoilers here again.

Because I know a lot of people have not seen this yet, uh, someday, we'll, we'll do maybe a whole episode on, uh, the podcast about all of it. But you know, the idea that you didn't get the answers that you were looking for and you have to make up con conspiracies, for everything.

So.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: that one last point I wanna make on that and I know this has been in the media, so spoiler alert, which I can't imagine this as a spoiler anymore. Matt and I are from that eighties generation. We grew up in the eighties and things were very different [00:18:00] socially and no. People were not allowed to come out, and the way that it happened in the show was actually very, very true to the time.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: No spoiler.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there was a lot of, a lot of discussion online about that.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: will say this though, I think it also. I think it actually also lends itself to the fact that it was good storytelling based, based solely on the fact that it generated so much controversy. Like if you

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: talking and caring about your story that much, of which way they fell, but they're wanting to talk about it, they're wanting to, to have a debate.

They're wanting to engage other people too. It's

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: it's also a really good sign, but

Christina: Oh, absolutely.

Matt: I do hope that. When we think about the, the dumbing down of this whatever toolkit you want to use to kind of make it easier for people who might have divided attention, follow along. I like that you had, [00:19:00] what you had said. I think that the bottom line is make your story so compelling that they don't wanna look away.

Christina: Right.

Matt: Right. And that goes to

Christina: Okay.

Matt: goes to character development, that goes to overall plot. Like of those pieces to your story have to be so compelling that people don't want to stop.

They don't wanna put the book down, they don't want to look away from the TV because they're enjoying it so much and they wanna know what's gonna happen next. And they're just so

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: it that it becomes a part of really their whole experience.

Christina: Whoever your key audience is, and I say key audience because there are a lot of genres and I'm not being specific to books or TVs and movie. I'm saying all of it. But your key audience your target audience, think about what would keep them engaged.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: How do they, you know get excited. So, talking about my niece the thing was I didn't actually, I mean, yeah, when I.

Saw her with [00:20:00] that phone down. I just thought to myself, yeah, she's enjoying it and everything, but when the, the friend asked how she liked it, that's when I had to think, okay, well I don't know the direct answer to that lady or the tiger but I can figure it out. I can figure it out because she had her phone down

Matt: Yep.

Christina: and this is a, a teenager that constantly,

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: constantly.

Is on her phone.

Matt: Absolutely. So just really think about that and how you build that into your storytelling. I think that's gonna be the key kind of takeaway there, right.

Christina: Yeah, and I, I think it's doable and I think that you should study the Duffer Brothers. They're fantastic. I can't wait to see what their next project is going to be. And in fact, I won't say. Outside of Stranger Things, because I, I think the Stranger Things world is infinite. It does not have to be the same characters.

It [00:21:00] does not have to be within Hawkins. You can move outside of the world. You know that you built into that one snapshot and time. You can revisit characters years later. It doesn't have to be the same sort of, upside down rift. And it doesn't have to be, it, it can be interesting things like, I've, I've heard somebody say they, they think they believe.

One of the spinoffs is Nancy is an investigative reporter.

Matt: Oh,

Interesting.

Christina: Yeah. Nancy Drew.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christina: so

Matt: Nice.

Christina: see that. And that has nothing to do with Hawkins. It has nothing to do

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: with the upside down. It can relate to other things,

Matt: Yeah,

The Deafer

Christina: He can,

Matt: talented,

Christina: yeah. Super talented. Super talented.

Matt: they've got a lot to offer

Christina: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: I think it's, it's great that we can look to creators like that and, and eagerly await what, whatever their next project [00:22:00] might be. I think it's always

Christina: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Matt: So, whether you think the door opens to the lady or the tiger. The point isn't the answer. It's the fact that the story trusted you to care enough to decide. And in a world where so much modern TV and film is designed to survive half your attention, maybe that trust is the real thing we're missing. So huge. Thanks as always to my wonderful co-host, Christina, the brilliant, the buoyant, and. The one who asks all kinds of amazing questions every week. If this episode made you rethink how you watch, read, or even write your stories, we'd love for you to talk about it. Reach out to us at Write Out Loud Pod on all of our social medias, and better yet, tell us what door you think they opened. So again, I'm Matt and for Christina. Just, keep writing out loud, but also keep paying attention.

​[00:23:00]