When the Journey Matters: Unraveling Predictable Endings

Matt: [00:00:45] Welcome everybody to write Out Loud the podcast that you've grown to love about storytelling and authorship and writing and creative arts and all that good stuff. And today, what if I told you that the ending doesn't matter? Like you already know, they're gonna end up together in a romance. You already know the ship sinks in Titanic.

You already know. Elizabeth and Darcy figure it out in Pride and Prejudice, and yet we lean forward anyway. So is mystery actually dead or have we just misunderstood what mystery really is? Well, again, welcome back to Write Out Loud, where we break down the stories. Behind the stories. Of course, I'm Matt, and with me as always is the effervescent, insightful, quick-witted, joyful, brilliant.

Christina, who may or may not argue that spoilers have officially ruined storytelling.

Christina: I can't, just because I don't want, well now see, I am a Libra,

Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Christina: so sometimes I [00:01:00] like spoilers and sometimes I don't.

Matt: There must be balance to the universe.

Christina: There must be balance. If I ask for spoilers, I want them. If I say Don't spoil it for me, then I don't. Yeah. I think to God, it does depend. Just as an example. And, and of course this book is all controversial now, but I read it day one when it came out, and so nobody knew what the book was about. and I went into it totally blind. And I think if you go into it blind, you have a different experience

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: it than you know now when everybody knows. Exactly what it is. It ends with us by Colleen Hoover.

Matt: Okay.

Christina: I had no idea it wasn't necessarily a romance. It, had a different And actually we fell in love with the bad guy, if you will,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: along with the heroine of the story.

And we understood where, her spec [00:02:00] perspective was, coming from, so that one, would suggest someone going without spoilers because it's a totally different experience. And I think what the author meant for the story to be, I don't think it was meant to be any sort of love story. It was a love story to her mother who was an abused, uh, woman.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: That's different and. Something like the Titanic, that's interesting too. know spoilers, so I'm watching Titanic and I know the characters that are gonna die, and I know the characters that are gonna be on, the ship's home. And I know one of the characters, oh God, and I can't remember what it was, his name that ends up testifying, at the trials and everything.

And, uh, like the owner of the ships or the white star line, I don't know.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: But, uh, Kate and Leo's characters we have no idea.

Matt: Right.

Christina: idea what's going to happen to them. So, yeah, [00:03:00] it's gonna be an interesting, uh, discussion here.

Matt: Yeah, and I think when we think about the overarching theme of this, right, we're thinking around mystery and what does that really mean? Are we talking suspense? Are we talking who done it kind of mystery, or are we talking about inevitable outcomes? And I think that's the one we're leaning towards is more the inevitable, inevitable outcome of a romance is they're going to get together.

It's just the journey. We don't know, right? Things are wrong with them. What kind of baggage did they bring into the relationship? What, you know, how well, how do they really fight through some of those things? And what are some of the, what are some of the things that they have to sacrifice along the way in order to make things work out to the end that we know is coming?

Right.

Christina: Yeah.

Matt: I, I feel the same kind of way around superhero movies. I mean, you know, at the end it's probably gonna be the superhero's triumphant in the end, right?

Christina: Yep.

Matt: Again.

Christina: America is going to win out the day.

Matt: How are you gonna get there? That's the fun part. But I also think about [00:04:00] historical movies. You know, we think about movies again, kind of like Titanic is one, even though it was a, a fictionalization of that event.

Christina: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: but you know, you think about Civil war movies, we know how it ends. We know what the outcome is.

So why are we, you know, what are we actually invested in in that story?

Christina: Yeah. And I think the common thread is, I mean if you look at all of that, you just named captain America Titanic, civil War.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: It's about the characters.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: characters. What do they learn? What kind of journey are they taking you on? So, thinking in terms of something like Civil War. A writer creatively, could decide, okay, I'm gonna take this one character and we're going to insert them into this real historical event, even though

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: is, fictional. But what you do with that character [00:05:00] is ultimately what makes the story great. Put someone, either on the edge of their seat, looking to see what happens, does this one survive or not? thinking in terms of, uh, historical aspects just this past weekend on uh, 60 Minutes, there was this really fantastic story about three babies. That were survivors of the Holocaust and essentially they were born the very, very end when all of the Nazis were basically for lack of, uh, better of explaining it getting rid of the evidence.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: and the idea that these three babies, I mean. was on the edge of my seat, even though the three were being interviewed, and I know clearly they lived well into their eighties. It was still edge of your seat because [00:06:00] every single moment the time that their mothers became pregnant. whether they started in a camp or not, at some point they were in a camp and then the story progresses and they're all on this death train. the last train to the last standing camp where they were, killing everyone, killing the evidence. and what happens is they get off the train and. What had happened in all of the previous days is they were all sent straight to the gas chamber, uh, but the day before they arrived, the gas ran out.

Matt: Hm.

Christina: So,

Matt: It's wild.

Christina: just the idea all of the happening. So it's, it is really central to the people you put in the story rather than what the ending is. So if the ending is known. Okay. Whether [00:07:00] that's romance, whether that's, your uh, historical events, the, comic book Heroes. We know what the ending is gonna be, either because we know the genre.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: gonna be a happy ending. Comic book heroes, gonna save the day, she's gonna save the day.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: Facts. We can look it up to see what happens. But what it is, is the journey of the central characters. and like I said, like I started with the civil War, you can really out someone you know, and make it a great story. Uh, by being very careful about who you're creating. So maybe it's somebody from the south who got wrapped up in this, and I mean, you

Matt: Sure.

Christina: the story. And where do they grow? do they go from? Okay, I'm a confederate and how do I stay the hero of this story? I mean,

Matt: Yeah. [00:08:00] Yeah.

Christina: ways that you can, just like James Cameron did with Titanic he created this, this mythology around this blue diamond.

And, was Jack A. Good guy or wasn't he? Or she lives, he dies, there's the door of controversy. But, 

Matt: yeah.

Christina: of the day James Cameron was able to do with these two characters is take you through all of the historical events with accuracy.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: So you're learning something, but also the growth of Rose's character.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: She went from the spoiled rich girl to someone who, in if the pictures can be believed someone who lived a very full life

Matt: Sure.

Christina: Set out to do all the things that she and Jack talked about doing. So yeah, you can create a lot.

Matt: Yeah. And I, I do think that there, it leaves a very vast [00:09:00] kenn of storytelling possibility, right in between that beginning and the end of that story. Because again, yes, you know, the inevitable outcome, but

Christina: Yep.

Matt: what does that look like? And from a, a creative standpoint, a storyteller standpoint, you have so much room for wiggle in between there, right?

Like you could, I mean, think about even stories like. It's, it's very civil war related, but Abraham Lincoln, vampire Hunter,

Christina: Oh, yeah, yeah,

Matt: Like being able to, like, this is, this is obviously that is fictionalized, but it's set in this historical era, you know, and that is true to life and you know how it's all gonna work out.

But yet you've now given him this. Uh, fantastic new role to play. And I think there's so much you can do with, with stories like that, but it is a, it is about the, the journey, the growth, you know, the plot itself, not necessarily the outcome of the story. And then really what the, what drives the characters through that?

What do they want, what does, what is it that they specifically want as an individual, not [00:10:00] just the fact that they're there, you know, like in this, let's, let's say in the Civil War. They're on the side of the south, right? So they want to keep things as it is. That's what the South wants. But what does this character want?

Maybe they just wanna win someone's hand, you know, they want someone's hand in marriage or something, you know, along the way. Who knows? But there's just so much there's so much in there that you can play with as a creative and as an artist that it is, it's pretty intriguing and inspiring.

Christina: Yeah, and I also think that as a writer, it gives you the framework. a romance, it gives you the framework. Okay, I have two characters that I need to get together. By the end, there's your framework, comic book, heroes, okay. There is going to be a conflict that this superhero and whatever abilities, they have, has to do with how that outcome is reached.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: Creating [00:11:00] historical characters. Okay. You have the framework of history and what do you want to do with these people? What do you want to take your audience

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: interesting because whenever someone, a client doesn't know they want to go with the story, you start with the feeling. How do you want your audience to feel?

Matt: Hmm.

Christina: What do you want your audience to learn? So once you get into that sort of thing and you've got the framework, you've basically got your outline.

Matt: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. We actually saw & Juliet the, the stage musical this weekend. Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's a different twist, of course, on what would happen if Juliet did not die and chose to live and kind of went on, you know, what, what happened to her afterwards. You know, again, that also gives you.[00:12:00] 

A chance to say like, you have this inevitable ending, but there's also this launching point now that you could say, what if we rewrite, rewrite that a little bit? Right. Maybe it's not inevitable. But at any rate, so interesting that we, we kind of explore here that it's not so much about. Maybe even spoilers.

It's not so much about the inevitability of what's gonna happen. It is really truly the craft and the, the power of that narrative, the emotion that gets into it. So like you said, what do you want your audience to feel? So I think in some ways, like the inevitability of it. I love that you said framework.

'cause it does, it takes a lot of pressure off of the artist to have to come up with those two, kind of like signposts, right? Like this is, here's where I'm starting, here's where I'm ending. Okay, now how do I wanna get there? And what kind of fun do we have along the way?

That's super interesting.

Christina: Yeah, it absolutely is. I mean, if you really look at anything that is truly great the well-written stuff, the stuff that gets the [00:13:00] Emmys and the Oscars and the. know, other stuff you can really get down to the nuts and bolts of it, is that it is a hero's journey and the inevitable at the end, whether they live or whether they die, or, I mean, if we're looking at the construct of creativity it's still about the character and how they get

Matt: Six O.

Christina: than where they. End up. so even in the cases of, I mean we've been talking about the secure, happy ending and the, the the love story that happens, the comic book hero that saves the day,

Matt: Sure.

Christina: thing that we know where it ends, regardless of what the ending is. So even in a circumstance of like, okay, Titanic. Most are gonna die. There are people that live, but where is [00:14:00] this character's journey? It doesn't matter whether you know that ending or not, it's

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Christina: when I read something or I watch something, I'm not necessarily watching to see what the end is.

How does this end? But rather where is this character going? What are they learning?

Matt: Sure.

Christina: what is happening and how does that affect me? I think that's why when people are having trouble with their work I'm working with them, I always go back to how do you want your audience to feel?

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: Because it starts with the feeling. We don't watch anything. We don't read anything if we feel nothing.

Matt: Yeah.

Christina: You know the stories that we don't connect to the character. Are the stories [00:15:00] that don't make the best seller list.

Matt: Sure.

Christina: their career never really takes off. They don't get the good reviews. In TV shows, they don't get renewed for a second season. Maybe even mid-season they get canceled. If we cannot as an audience to the journey, the character, and what's happening in the present, no matter where it's supposed to end.

Matt: Yeah,

Christina: We're, we're not

Matt: we're hurting. Yeah. I think there's an, I think there's a big focus too that needs to be placed on what's the cost of that journey to the protagonist or to the, maybe even the couple, right? Depending on what you're, what you're looking to do. Like really explore that. What is the cost? To getting what you want to, getting that ending to finally being quote unquote maybe happy ever after.

What did they lose along the way? I mean, think about, you know, stories like John Wick, the John Wick series again, inevitably, you know, he's gonna, he's gonna win. He's gonna be okay at the end, but what the [00:16:00] heck has he been through and what has he given up to get there a lot.

Christina: Yes.

Matt: it can be incredibly powerful too.

Really focus on, you know, just that, that total cost to the individual and to the characters themselves.

Christina: and it can start as simple as everybody needs to learn. mess with a man's dog.

Matt: Exactly. Exactly. So maybe mystery was never about who ends up together or what happens in the final act. Maybe it's about how people change. Maybe it's about the cost. Maybe it's about watching two flawed humans stumble towards something better. Even. Even when we know they'll get there. We don't rewatch.

When Harry met Sally for the surprise, we rewatch it for the journey, the tension, the becoming. So mystery isn't dead. We just stopped looking in the right place for it. Well, thanks for hanging in with us here for a little bit as we talked about this one. And thanks for listening to [00:17:00] Right Out Loud. As always, if you enjoyed the conversation, share the episode with somebody who thinks that predictable means boring.

And uh, we'll see you next time.

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